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Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
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Posted - 2013.04.21 20:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:To be honest, I don't think that will be a problem. Should be enough districts to go around.
HAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!
*Eyes watering*
I'm sorry, Man.
*Gasps for breath*
I'm not trying to be a jerk dude, but that was really funny.
There are at least six Kaijus in Dust already:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Unclaimed. <- SVER True Blood http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Test_Alliance_Please_Ignore <- Subdreddit http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Orion_Empire <- A BUNCH of Dust corps... http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Ivy_League <- Dust University http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/RISE_of_LEGION <- A BUNCH of Dust corps... http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/CRONOS. <- A BUNCH of Dust corps...
(Apologies to any I've forgotten)
That doesn't include the sharks or any of the other kaijus that will get more deeply into Dust as it starts to affect them.
There are not enough districts to go around. There never will be. The only thing right now that will keep PC from being another total NAP fest is if the "anyone in your corp can fight" rule stays in place and these alliances can't maintain internal discipline about who gets to fight.
My apologies if you were just kidding.
I'm just really gloomy about the future of PC as a game mode for anyone but the top 5% of players.
Look at the math- 250 districts x 32 players per day = 9,000 slots for PC battles.
That's assuming every district is attacked every day- but it will probably be less than half of them each day, so 4,500. We'll round up to 5,000.
There are over 2,000,000 mercs on DustBoard, even assuming that 75% of those are alts or dead accounts, that's 500,000 live players. Even if we assume that 80% of those play infrequently enough not to care about PC, that's still 100,000 players competing for less than 5,000 slots.
Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day. Since any corp that wants to hold its districts will try very hard to enforce the "you only fight if we pick you" rule, that means that in a very short period of time the six kaijus will hold all of Molden Heath and the rest of us will be scrimping and saving up money to attack single districts only to fight against ringers in (40-district funded) proto or tech 2 gear.
This is why I was SO VERY insistent that Genesis was a better region and that hisec systems had to count in the jumping. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mister Porter wrote:We need either a boot player from the match function or an invite type feature so people cannot just randomly join a corp match uninvited.
No. Random corp members acting like blueberries is the only thing that will enable PC to have a snowball's chance in hell of not becoming a NAP fest. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:If your in a large corp that averages 30-40 people active daily its difficult to let EVERYONE know not to join a match. Not everyone is a hardcore player that pays attention to every little detail. Some 'casaul' players open their battlefinders and see "corp battle open now" and so they just join in without thinking. This is a big issue when your partaking in tournys and what not. As listed above a simple "kick" or "invite" feature would be fantastic. Or even a more complex system where you could assign groups of players days before the match even starts. I suspect that unless they fix the problem soon the issue is only going to get worse as corps get bigger. But I heard they were working on this so will see how things go.
The problem, honestly, isn't the 30-40 person corp.
It's the 500 person corp...
...in the 3,000 person alliance.
A kaiju. Of which there are at least six, probably eight or ten, already in game.
Unless we let the same communications chaos you're talking about hurt them, they will be unstoppable by anyone short of another kaiju. These mega alliances will simply be able to zerg everyone at their leisure with no risk of having spies or bad players slip into battles and muck up the works.
Without the chaos of random corpies jumping in, there will be no PC for anyone but the top 1% of players in the game.
Why? Because once the kaijus divide up Molden Heath amongst themselves, they will fight each other only rarely because they want to focus on smacking down small interlopers. This is the NAP Fest.
When little guys do attack, the kaijus' elite ringers will be equipped with gear funded from the clone sales on 20-40 districts, not scrimped and saved from scores of battles.
Right now, as the mechanics stand, the only shot anyone has of upsetting the kaijus' apple cart is the possibility that spies or blueberries get into battles and mess things up for their own team. That forces the kaijus to at least occasionally take losses instead of just reaping profits. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
hooc roht wrote:Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day. ummm it is called planetary conquest....pretty sure 250 districts on one planet is not going to be the end game for long...there are lots of planets in Eve. [/quote]
You are correct that there are a lot more planets (especially in nullsec) that will eventually be opened to PC.
At that point, however, the big sovereignty alliances will become VERY interested in PC and make sure that they become kaijus in Dust as well.
Essentially, those planets will be off-limits to most corps.
That leaves lowsec, non-FW regions, of which there are only what, six? Seven?
That puts us in the realm of what, two thousand districts?
For a game that is intended to keep growing.
Honestly, what is likely to happen is that the kaijus linked to sovereign nullsec will pull back into their space, opening up lowsec for the other primarily-Dust kaijus. They will end up dominating entire lowsec regions without any effective challengers because they have so much wealth and manpower.
Sure, some corps might be able to rent planets from them, but only in places that the kaijus think are too risky or too worthless to defend themselves. If the corps don't pay rent, the kaiju sends in the ringers to wipe them out.
This is the same problem that led to the "Blue Donut" of Non-Aggression Pacts in EVE.
Once you control a lot of planets (or systems), your only threats are similarly-sized organizations. If you don't control a lot of planets (or systems), you cannot amass the resources to take territory from a large alliance.
Barring massive NPC zerg attacks on territories that go unattacked for too long, this is likely to happen even with the "anyone can fight" rule. But keeping the possibility for spies and nincompoops will at least slow it down. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:As one of the corps most likely affected by the "spy" situation, I am firmly against a "kick player" option. Being a spy and sabotaging a battle should be a valid tactic, if a corp lets a spy in they should have to suffer the consequences.
As far as organizational skills and communication, there is no magic bullet. You just have to make sure your corporation is set up properly with good fundamentals. There are more skills required for corps in this game to be successful than simply those of the gun toting variety, and the larger a corp gets the more important these skills become. Leadership, organization, diplomacy, training, etc are all necessary to be able to grow and maintain a corp large enough to achieve the results you wish to achieve.
It's relatively easy to build a small corp that's basically equivalent to a few squads of Navy Seals, it's another thing entirely to try and build a large scale empire akin to the U.S. Army. In the first you just pile together some "elite" players and call yourself a corp, in the second you must create programs, guidelines, recruitment channels, organize events to keep players morale high, create schedules that are flexible enough to give every player a chance to be involved and improve, etc.
Well said, sir. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
704
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 23:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
hooc roht wrote: Well looking at what CCP is doing with eve (they want to make it new again like the first time you played it. A huge unknown to explore) i am thinking they are going to substantially increase the size of the EVE universe.
Also with DUST there seems to be only a little benefit of linking up with a big EVE corp. As a dust Merc the eve pilots can't really hurt us. We die and only lose a little gear. If anything keeping the Mercs in line with what an EVE corp wants will be a drain on them.
I am thinking DUST will not solidify the huge corps but open their flank to an attack.
I am also thinking CCP is doing this by design.
Honestly, I hope you are right.
My concern is just that Dust, which is intended to be accessible to a more casual audience than EVE, is running a very real risk of just becoming the same Blue Donut as EVE.
Perhaps if they were launching with a lot more districts and more space between them I wouldn't be so worried, but I just don't see how anyone but the kaijus and maybe a few sharks are going to own anything in Molden Heath after a month.
The more I look at the economics and the more I look at how closely packed that region is (3 jumps max from the farthest pockets), I just don't see a future for anyone who isn't already seriously organized and super-skilled or super-huge. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
705
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 12:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Baal Roo wrote:As one of the corps most likely affected by the "spy" situation, I am firmly against a "kick player" option. Being a spy and sabotaging a battle should be a valid tactic, if a corp lets a spy in they should have to suffer the consequences. If someone reveals themself as a spy by starting to teamkill or something else in the middle of a match he should be able to be kicked right away. It doesn't make sense that a corp can't do anything to get rid of a spy the moment he reveals himself. The spy can always just not play up to his best, make teamkills look like a mistake or something else, but there should be an option to kick him right away if leadership wants to. If the spy isn't playing up to his best he still sabotages the match on a small scale. If he wants to go large scale and try to teamkill the entire team he should do it at the right time because he risks being kicked out of the match the moment he starts doing it. Patoman Radiant wrote:If they suck kick them out of corp. No more problems. That doesn't solve the thing with a spy during a match.
Spies are working as intended.
They are SUPPOSED to be able to mess with you- but only once.
They are a critical part of the metagame in New Eden, and one of the reasons why good recruitment and HR management is very important. I remember back in CFS we were always on the lookout for spy-like behavior and the management and recruitment teams had a whole section on the boards for HR. Every single member (except a few founders) had an entry in there, starting with recruitment emails and then including every questionable interaction witnessed by a manager or recruiter. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
706
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 14:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Spies are working as intended.
They are SUPPOSED to be able to mess with you- but only once. Am I misunderstanding something here? Even if they can get kicked they can still **** up your match right? I mean they can still teamkill many on your team before they're kicked. They just can't teamkill throughout the entire match, which is just stupid anyway.
Right now, as I understand it, and as it works in EVE, once the spy is revealed- your CEO/Directors can "fire" him and kick him out of the corp. Once the battle ends, he will no longer be able to join your battles (unless another corpie invites him to squad).
Until they do, he can screw up any match he gets into. He can TK/AWOX to his heart's content until the end of the battle. Your solution to this is for the squad commanders (using mics) to order the rest of the team to quickly take him out every time he spawns.
If EVE is any guide, this is how the game is supposed to work. It is one of the ways to punish corps that grow too quickly without putting adequate effort into Human Resources.
Yes. Large EVE organizations have HR departments. Because of spies and nincompoops. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
708
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 19:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Schalac 17 wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: A kaiju.
What does Godzilla have to do with it?
It's part of a set of descriptors I used for organizations that want to engage in PC, arranged in order of effectiveness from least to most:
Minnows Sharks Monsters Kaijus (Giant Monsters)
Essentially, Sharks and Minnows are small-to-medium corps with Sharks being the really well-run, high-skill ones. Kaijus are the largest (thousands of members, virtually indestructible) and most likely to dominate PC. Monsters are in between (big, but not huge, or huge but poorly run).
I forget when I started using it, probably the discussion of the first PC devblog. Since then, I've just kept using the same language to be consistent. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
708
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 19:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alcare Xavier Golden wrote:Now if we just had the tools to properly support an HR / Security effort....aaaahhh CREST might thee arrive some glorious morn and solve all our problems....until we identify the insufficiencies with that tool as well....
Yup. *Thumbs up to you*
A lot of corps have outside forums for that. |
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